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What would it take for you to switch to Linux?
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ghostdawg
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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o.k. I get it. That's why I said what I said.

AGAIN, when Linux can run native on ANY of my machines, then it will become my main OS.

I understand also how you feel...but running linux natively is no problem, trying to run Safari or iTunes is a problem, but not linux fault.

Ask your favorite vendor would they please port those programs to linux! Laughing
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Fox
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aquafire wrote:
Yes, I have a passion for Linux...
But at the same time, I love OS-X and even olde OS-9 which I still use to run some very rare apps...

Since OS 9 has been brought up, does anyone know if there is an app that lets you run OS 9 on Linux when it is being run on an Intel Mac? (Similar to MOL with Linux on a PPC Mac.)
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aj
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally for me the answer to this question is the same for Linux as for Windows:

Linux/UNIX/Windows can do anything I would want it to. You can even get apps to mimic the functionallity of things like Exposé on Linux and Windows. I just much prefer the Mac OS X user experience. You can tell thousands of man hours have been put in to making everything "super easy" as Steve would say.

I did use FreeBSD (Unix) and later SuSE Linux as my day to day OS before moving to a Mac and I don't miss the lack of refinement of the user experience at all from either of them.

I realise this is a subjective view but that's what user experience is all about.

Linux is free, but OS X I'm willing to (and do) pay over the odds for.

So in answer to the question, I'd switch to Linux if and when it became more refined a user experience in my subjective view than Mac OS X
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stupkid
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing that is missing from each comment is the primary reason for the existence of Linux, freedom. Obviously most people are not that concerned with the openess/freedom of a platform. Which is why the reality of the computing world is what it is.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
But there are compelling philosophical reasons to switch to Linux, and I'm not all that happy with the way my hardware choices are limited by what Apple makes. Maybe I'm just going through a grouchy phase. Ask me again in six months.

I agree with many of the points that Fox makes. In fact, these ideas were pretty much the ones that inspired me to start this thread.

Low cost aside, Linux makes common sense. If you can get hold of an app that does exactly what you want and you invest the time and effort into learning that app, then it's a great feeling knowing that no software publisher can render your app (and knowledge) obsolete with the next 'upgrade'. You can do what's right for you rather than what's foisted upon you by developers.

What really woke me up to the situation that we're all in was this passage written by Eric Raymond in his essay "The Magic Cauldron":
Quote:
Put yourself for the moment in the position of a CTO at a Fortune 500 corporation contemplating a build or upgrade of your firm's IT infrastructure. Perhaps you need to choose a network operating system to be deployed enterprise-wide; perhaps your concerns involve 24/7 web service and e-commerce; perhaps your business depends on being able to field high-volume, high-reliability transaction databases.

Suppose you go the conventional closed-source route. If you do, then you put your firm at the mercy of a supplier monopoly—because by definition, there is only one place you can go for support, bug fixes, and enhancements. If the supplier doesn't perform, you will have no effective recourse because you are effectively locked in by your initial investment and training costs. Your supplier knows this. Under these circumstances, do you suppose the software will change to meet your needs and your business plan...or your supplier's needs and your supplier's business plan?

The brutal truth is this: when your key business processes are executed by opaque blocks of bits that you can't even see inside (let alone modify) you have lost control of your business. You need your supplier more than your supplier needs you—and you will pay, and pay, and pay again for that power imbalance. You'll pay in higher prices, you'll pay in lost opportunities, and you'll pay in lock-in that grows worse over time as the supplier (who has refined its game on a lot of previous victims) tightens its hold.

As Mac users, we can apply everything that's said about software above to our hardware situation as well. So I started thinking. Why don't I switch to Linux? And it didn't take long for reality to hit home....

- Apps are created by developers for their own use. So, supposing no developers want to make the kind of apps that I need - what then?
- Secondly, they are made to the standards that are decided by the developers, not the market. In a capitalist system, customers can register their displeasure with a company's design decisions (e.g. "This app doesn't have such-and-such a feature...") or quality control by buying someone else's products. How can you send a message to a software house that it's products aren't good enough, when the software is given away for free? This feedback mechanism is disabled when you can't withdraw your custom.
- Thirdly, apps rarely display innovation; they're more likely to faithfully copy existing apps. I believe that this lack of innovation means that Linux will always be playing catch-up with proprietary software.

The only glimmer of hope occurs when a wealthy believer in open source (like Mark Shuttleworth) bankrolls a set of developers to create something that's complete and coherent (like the Ubuntu distro). But we're back to the original problem faced by buyers of proprietary software: we're dependent upon someone else.

The way out of this situation is to write our own programs for Linux. I can't speak for other members, but my programming experience of 8-bit Basic and 16-bit Turbo Pascal is laughably obsolete. I would need to find the time and money to learn to program Linux and then find the time to craft my own apps up to a standard where other programmers might be tempted to contribute. But realistically, who has the time for that?

So I'm left with my current situation, which is to buy the best proprietary OS and apps that are currently available: Mac OS X
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hackersmovie
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stupkid wrote:
The thing that is missing from each comment is the primary reason for the existence of Linux, freedom. Obviously most people are not that concerned with the openess/freedom of a platform. Which is why the reality of the computing world is what it is.


I agree, however, I doubt "most people" even know there is an option. I think the more we see Linux shipping on boxes and available at places like Wal-Mart, the of a chance Linux has in the public arena. One major hinderance is most people just need to fire up their machine and it work, they don't want/need or know how to install an OS much less other apps!

Johnnyboy, kudos mate! that was one well thought out and specific reply! A great read for me!
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JohnnyBoy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hackersmovie wrote:
Johnnyboy, kudos mate! that was one well thought out and specific reply! A great read for me!

Why thank you Sir! Smile
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ghostdawg
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about companies like Red Hat...they inovate. But alot of distros are the work of one or a few people doing it for the love of having the choice & freedom and sharing their work.

For some real fun, there's always Linux from Scratch, where you can build your own distro from the ground up, but it's alot of work.
http://www.linuxfromscratch.org

Linux From Scratch (LFS) is a project that provides you with step-by-step instructions for building your own custom Linux system, entirely from source code.

I'm not trying to convince anybody to use linux...it does have its drawbacks as do all OSes but even a steeper learning curve.

As the saying goes, I'm a true linux crackpot and I guess most here are Apple fanatics. Razz
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macmanmacman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what turns me off about linux no offense because i have used ubuntu and i like ubuntu because it is easy to use and easy to run happens to be the fact it is opensource which means the applications that people create are actually illegal in certain countrys but yet are distrubuted through the softwares add and remove option.

What would get me to use linux more.

1. Easier application intergration this would help with dvd playback where you have to install different plugin's one of which is illegal in order to play dvd's right now under linux.

2. Insane pricing needs to stop. Red hat linux business license $2,000 for a business license.


3. More real software. Don't get me wrong love the applications and free games in linux but some real games would be nice not open source.


4. Compatible with more computers. Every distro of linux has had to be modified at some point and time in order to even run on the apple hardware something that i don't like having to go into open firmware to get the os to boot.
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trustory
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice reply there JohnnyBoy I think you've hit the nail on the head. Alot of Linux apps do feel like 5 year old versions of there windows and mac counterparts. Don't get me wrong there are of course exceptions to the rule.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Company's like this will certainly help linux to get to the masses. I am actually considering plunking down the $200 to go get one and give it a spin. I've read it can also run Windows and other versions of Linux. I'd like to try gOS just for S&G's.

(I'm typing this in Ubuntu on my Macbook . . .)
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Fox
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll say this about the Walmart unit - at least the processor is made by a company with a good environmental claim ("carbon-free" because they invest in carbon reduction projects to offset the processor's footprint). However, when you look at the components, you're getting what you pay for as you usually do in the PC world. We don't have that one available in Walmart in Canada, but for $100 more, you get this, which looks to be at least $100 better. It isn't Linux, but it costs nothing to install Linux so I wouldn't consider the Everex $199 model to be worth anything more than the hardware alone. Mind you, it's a different story for the average consumer.

FYI, I'm trying a new Linux project - installing it as a dual boot on an old PPC G3 beige. Quite the challenge, as it doesn't automatically boot to the Linux CD. Still working on it.
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hackersmovie
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
FYI, I'm trying a new Linux project - installing it as a dual boot on an old PPC G3 beige. Quite the challenge, as it doesn't automatically boot to the Linux CD. Still working on it.


Not sure on the PPC side but, I just finished a rather in depth tutorial on triple booting an Intel Mac. . .

If anyone is interested just PM me.
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Aquafire
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Aquafire wrote:
Yes, I have a passion for Linux...
But at the same time, I love OS-X and even olde OS-9 which I still use to run some very rare apps...

Since OS 9 has been brought up, does anyone know if there is an app that lets you run OS 9 on Linux when it is being run on an Intel Mac? (Similar to MOL with Linux on a PPC Mac.)


This is probably as good a place to start as any.

http://www.thefreecountry.com/emulators/macintosh.shtml

Take a look at Sheepshaver.

This list is the most extensive that I have found on the net.

http://www.usinglinux.org/emulators/

I hope it is of some use.

Also, you may want to investigate Bochs.

Aquafire
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Aquafire. Looks like SheepShaver is the one, but it has to be compiled on Linux. There is an OS X version, but for some reason, it will run on one of my Intel Macs but not the other.
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