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Opera 8.02 with BitTorrent
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Susurrus
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RogerC wrote:
Try here:

Same site, different page.

http://www.bittorrent.com/privacy.html

That is where I got the quote in my post earlier about the ONLINE EXPERIENCE.

Regardless, I couldn't begin to see anything BT would offer that would be of any benefit for ME. My downloads are blazingly fast with cable modem, as is.

And.....sites that require proprietary "front ends" to download anything, are highly suspect, in my opinion. Blizzard really does that?


Okay, Blizzard uses BitTorrent for some downloads, I'm not sure of which ones, because I haven't played any games in a while, but there seems to be a lot of downloads for WoW that use BT.

Also let me clarify what a BT frontend is. I call it a frontend just because that's pretty much what it acts like. If you download the BT program from www.bittorrent.com you get a very basic program. You can use it to download .torrent files, but it lacks pretty much all features besides just downloading. A frontend is a program like Azureus. It builds on top of the BT components by providing its own, more advanced GUI as well as features such as firewall testing and auto configuration using UPnP.

It's very similar to all the different programs that can access the Fasttrack P2P network, the one that Kazaa and Morpheus use. These applications such as Azureus aren't proprietary anymore than BT is propietary because that is the downloading method they use.

Edit:

Also, regarding them collecting information, read any website's privacy page and you'll see that exact same clause. 123MacMini.com collects personal information like this also, it's just how webservers work. They log who visits when and what they were using and so on. This is how they say in their ToS or ToU that they will give up any information they have on you to the authorities. That information is the information that the servers' stored about you.

As for BT talking about gathering information on their site that is only for their Bit Torrent Features page, which you have to register with. Gathering information about a registered user is also common and helps the site remember where you were last so when you login you're taking right there and stuff like that. If you don't like that happening, which it does pretty much anywhere you register (NYTimes and Amazon.com being just a few examples), you should never register for any site, even if it's free.
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Last edited by Susurrus on Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RogerC
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, but WHY is it even necessary?

Am I missing something here?

If files are on a server, what is wrong with downloading them the "regular" way? Or using FTP?

It is my belief that if they require you to use something, it is NOT out of the goodness of their hearts. There is an agenda. Either overt, or clandestine.
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aristobrat
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RogerC wrote:
Same site, different page.

http://www.bittorrent.com/privacy.html

I'm still not sure that you're understanding that the privacy page that you're linking to is in regards to you visting their website with your web browser. Nothing they mention on that link has anything to do with the BitTorrent program that you can download and run on your computer.

Also, I'd guess than 99% of the websites that you visit, including this one, use the generic information that you browser provides to their webserver. They're not tracking your personal Internet usage, although they are aware of what you're doing on their site. For example, if the web logs here show that 30% of folks are using the Camino browser, then the site admin might want to start checking to make sure this site functions well in Camino.

This is no different from a marketing group watching you as you walk around a Best Buy store. Without personally identifiying you, they can track your gender, make a relativey educated guess at your age and ethnicity, and your habits .. i.e. you headed over to the DVD section first, then looked at computers, etc.
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Susurrus
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RogerC wrote:
OK, but WHY is it even necessary?

Am I missing something here?

If files are on a server, what is wrong with downloading them the "regular" way? Or using FTP?

It is my belief that if they require you to use something, it is NOT out of the goodness of their hearts. There is an agenda. Either overt, or clandestine.


They don't require it. There is also an option to download the file regularily. The agenda for any site that serves files using BT is that it's cheaper. Much, much cheaper. Instead of the thousands of hits and gigabytes of bandwidth that Blizzard's site would have to deal with, that is all routed through BT so Blizzard doesn't need to worry about its servers overloading from too much demand right after a big update or a popular file is posted. Why have would Blizzard want just one file server that costs a lot of money per gigabyte to maintain when they can have thousands that are practically free?

I don't see why any website would serve files through FTP or HTTP (the regular way) when you could do it through BT and just have the website act as a permanent seeder so that there is always one. BT is not a proprietary standard because it is open-source; proprietary would imply it being closed-source. The only reason that people are worried about it is because it is not a standard like HTTP/FTP/HTTPS/TCP/IP/etc. Considering the steps Opera is taking in bringing BT to the mass market is that this will make BT recognized as an unofficial standard in that it is not approved by any standards-governing body, but used so much that it becomes one.

Blizzard uses their own "frontend" to BT just like Azureus is a frontend to BT. Information on this can be found on their website here. This covers pretty much everything I said above as well as use of their frontend.
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aristobrat
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RogerC wrote:
OK, but WHY is it even necessary?

Am I missing something here?

If files are on a server, what is wrong with downloading them the "regular" way? Or using FTP?

It is my belief that if they require you to use something, it is NOT out of the goodness of their hearts. There is an agenda. Either overt, or clandestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_torrent

Quote:
In conventional downloading, high demand leads to bottlenecks as demand surges for bandwidth from the host server. With BitTorrent, high demand can actually speed throughput as more bandwidth and additional “seeds” of the completed file become available to the group. Cohen claims that for very popular files, BitTorrent can support about a thousand times as many downloads as HTTP.
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aristobrat
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Wikipedia example of what Susurrus said. Notice how the server at the bottom does the initial work, but the BitTorrent programs running on peoples computers takes over the load, freeing up the server.


BitTorrent greatly reduces the load on peers with complete copies, because peers with incomplete copies generally download the file from each other. As the colored bars below each client show, the file is downloaded in random order, instead of sequential order.
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RogerC
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info guys.

But since I am not much of a Gamer, or file sharer, I doubt if I will have much need for such a program.

I guess my suspicious nature is from many, many years of Windows and all the malicious crap associated with it, and the fact that I have been around since Al Gore invented the internet Smile and have watched it's steady decline, into an over commercialized, online version of TV, and into a home of criminals and scammers and spammers.
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Susurrus
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aristobrat wrote:
A Wikipedia example of what Susurrus said. Notice how the server at the bottom does the initial work, but the BitTorrent programs running on peoples computers takes over the load, freeing up the server.

BitTorrent greatly reduces the load on peers with complete copies, because peers with incomplete copies generally download the file from each other. As the colored bars below each client show, the file is downloaded in random order, instead of sequential order.


Just wanted to point out how excellent the example picture aristobrat posted is.

Also, RogerC, a person not heavily involved in downloading (legal works only) because of gaming or CC interest does not need to have BT. But that is also a big problem in the Apple world, too many people are worried about malware. I don't want people to become lazy and careless on a Mac, since that just helps malware spread, if not to Macs then to other Windows boxes, but it is less of a concern on a Mac.
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RogerC
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.answers.com/what%20is%20bit%20torrent%3F

I found that be be very interesting.

Sounds more insidious that what you guys think.

Pirating movies?

Sharing of large files?

Sounds like warez..............
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aristobrat
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RogerC wrote:
Sounds more insidious that what you guys think.

About as insidious as the fact that you can look at kiddy porn or hack bank accounts with Safari/Internet Explorer/Firefox. Or that a car can be used to commit vehicular manslaughter, or be used to quickly getaway from a crime scene.

It's a tool, Roger .. just like a web brower, car, or even a computer. It can be used in many ways.

FWIW, my #1 use of BitTorrent is to get very big files -- Linux distributions. Usually 2-3 gigs (4 cds or 1 DVD).
http://cvs.terraplex.com/~owen/ydl4_torrents/
http://torrent.dulug.duke.edu/
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Susurrus
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aristobrat wrote:
RogerC wrote:
Sounds more insidious that what you guys think.

About as insidious as the fact that you can look at kiddy porn or hack bank accounts with Safari/Internet Explorer/Firefox. Or that a car can be used to commit vehicular manslaughter, or be used to quickly getaway from a crime scene.

It's a tool, Roger .. just like a web brower, car, or even a computer. It can be used in many ways.

FWIW, my #1 use of BitTorrent is to get very big files -- Linux distributions. Usually 2-3 gigs (4 cds or 1 DVD).
http://cvs.terraplex.com/~owen/ydl4_torrents/
http://torrent.dulug.duke.edu/


A better example would be that it's as insidious as FTP or HTTP. FTP can and is used to distribute warez and what-not, HTTP is used by kiddie-porn and phishing sites. BT has such big advantages over straight HTTP and FTP that warez sites are using them; this should come at no suprise to anyone as people doing illegal things are always looking for the latest and greatest to make their work easier.

Also, remember that BT is just a protocol that can be used to create a WAN, it isn't just a WAN where there're tons of warez and such.
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RogerC
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many years have you been on the internet? And if you don't mind, how old are you?

Just curious because you seem so eager to defend somethng that is obviously used for illegal downloading.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's not illegal, its iLegal.
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aristobrat
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes @ Roger ... not worth saying anything else
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RogerC
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All you guys who think BT is some innocent downoad tool, get real. It is exactly what I thought it was, and that is a tool used by FILE SHARERS.....in other words, SOFTWARE PIRATES. Sure it has some legit uses, but so did the original Napster. So did Morpheus, and a bunch of others.

I wonder how many BT users have illegal software on their computers? Any guesses?

BT even prevents LEECHING. Wow, now there's a nice term....any illegal downloaders know what THAT's all about? I bet they do.

Its all smoke and mirrors.

Pull your heads out of the sand guys. Tell me its not used for warez and software piracy.....go ahead.

Done with this thread. Some of you are so naive, it hurts my head...
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