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RAID or not to RAID...
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kerbouchard
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 5:13 pm    Post subject: RAID or not to RAID... Reply with quote

OK have 2 2TB HDs. Want to keep and grow my media on one and back up to other by cloning with incremental updates. Now after doing research wondering if I would be better using them in a RAID 10 setup. If I understand this correctly I get performance benefits by using both with the redundancy of a cloned back up copy. Or am I just better off with tying up 2 tb storage for only backups of my media files? Any opinions appreciated.
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philiparcario
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if your media files are video in nature you may find that 2tb is not as big as you think. I use eytv and 3 hours of hdtv take up 16gb!

so a 2tb hdd has about 300 to 400 hours of tv and it is filled. You don't need raid as long as you make back ups. you may also find you will want 3 or 4 hdds down the road. A is current b is backup and c is an extra copy of the really good stuff that you don't want to lose.
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billb
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: RAID or not to RAID... Reply with quote

kerbouchard wrote:
OK have 2 2TB HDs. Any opinions appreciated.
If I'm not mistasken RAID 10 (1+0) requires four Hard Drives.
You need two more HD's and an enclosure that supports RAID 10. Or
have I missed something? Anyway, I use RAID 10 with four 2TB HD's
and I'm no longer as nervous as I use to be. HERES a link to my
RAID 10 trials and tribulations. You may (or may not) benefit from
reading it.
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kerbouchard
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I have all lacie d2s. The rack for them. And 10.6 lists a RAID app so it is a software controller not a hardware type.So do I still need an enclosure? I have 4 drives they just go from a size of 500gb to 2tb. From what I read you want to keep all the RAID drives the same size. That is why I was going to use the 2tbs in a raid and the others for 1tb time machine/clone of the mini internal and 500megs for a seperate windows drive. I am just trying to come up with the best configuration for this conglomeration. here is what I have.
2tb
2tb
1tb
500gb
All firewire 800 Lacies.
Any Suggestions? I will be buying 2tb from now on because I want to grow my video collection. And back it up.
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billb
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:22 pm    Post subject: Software RAID Reply with quote

kerbouchard wrote:
Well I have all lacie d2s. The rack for them. And 10.6 lists a RAID app so it is a software controller not a hardware type.So do I still need an enclosure?
Technically speaking, no. Your OS won't know the difference from several
Hard Drives in an Enclosure or several Partitions on one Hard drive.
It'll all look the same. It won't be the same as all seperate HD's though.
kerbouchard wrote:
I have 4 drives they just go from a size of 500gb to 2tb. From what I read you want to keep all the RAID drives the same size. That is why I was going to use the 2tbs in a raid and the others for 1tb time machine/clone of the mini internal and 500megs for a seperate windows drive. I am just trying to come up with the best configuration for this conglomeration. here is what I have.
2tb
2tb
1tb
500gb
All firewire 800 Lacies.
Any Suggestions?

You are truely the only one that can decide what is important to you.
Which means only you can come up with a backup stragity that works
for you and your needs.

kerbouchard wrote:
I will be buying 2tb from now on because I want to grow my video collection. And back it up.
That sounds wise though I linked a little while ago to Hitachi 3TB/5600 Drives for $119.99.

Let me add that Software RAID isn't as reliable as a good Hardware RAID enclosure.
Ask Philip Arcario about all of his Software RAID problems.
He (and I) are strictly Hardware RAID now.
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kerbouchard
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are truely the only one that can decide what is important to you.
Which means only you can come up with a backup stragity that works
for you and your needs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I lost some stuff in a HD failure. So I want to make sure It does not happen again. I have never used a RAID setup. Seemed like it make make more sense from a performance standpoint to have drives working together instead of one just being a clone of the other one. Just trying to analyze it from a cost/benefit perspective. Beginning to look like RAID is more trouble than it is worth.
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billb
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: SuperDuper/CarbonCopyCloner Reply with quote

That could be the case
Before I purchased an Enclosure with
hardware RAID, I simply made one or
two clones a day using SuperDuper for
one Clone then Carbon Copy Cloner for
the other. I constantly switched back and
forth Using SD then CCC while using four
and five different drives. That strategy
ended up paying off. My interconnect
board slowly went bad and made some
bad clones. I had to eventually replace
my interconnect board. Then I went through
all five clones. None worked till the fifth and
last clone. My strategy worked. My suggestion
would be to use many hard drives and rotate
the cloning App. that you use.
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asmack
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: SuperDuper/CarbonCopyCloner Reply with quote

Just curious, how did you realize that the clones were bad? Did SD and CCC give a warning that the cloning process could not be completed, or did the programs just stop responding (ie., freeze)? Or was it only through diligent testing of each of your clones that you discovered they were going bad?

I'm scared now because if my clones are going bad and SD is not alerting me to this fact, how do I go about finding out if the integrity of my clones is good?

Do the interconnect boards in the Mac mini's fail after so many hours? Or was this bad luck on your part?

Finally, is this why you eventually decided to go RAID, because of the problems you experienced? I hear that RAIDs have their own set of problems and headaches. I guess the key thing is to have as many backups as possible, ideally with some copies stored offsite and rotated regularly.

Sorry for all the questions!

billb wrote:
That could be the case
Before I purchased an Enclosure with
hardware RAID, I simply made one or
two clones a day using SuperDuper for
one Clone then Carbon Copy Cloner for
the other. I constantly switched back and
forth Using SD then CCC while using four
and five different drives. That strategy
ended up paying off. My interconnect
board slowly went bad and made some
bad clones. I had to eventually replace
my interconnect board. Then I went through
all five clones. None worked till the fifth and
last clone. My strategy worked. My suggestion
would be to use many hard drives and rotate
the cloning App. that you use.
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philiparcario
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billb like myself tweaks and mods the gear he has.

Sometimes assembly and dis- assembly and assembly wears the gear out. The only sure way to know a clone is bad is boot it and use it if it works it is good if it does not work it is not good.


Sometimes during a clone build it can hang up and freeze. You can be pretty sure the clone has problems when it happens. I also make a hdd with tv shows I recorded photos and music. just 3 folders with maybe 50 tv shows 2000 photos and 20000 songs. It is about 400gb out of 640gb it sits in my banks safety deposit box. i use this unit,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Toshiba-640-GB-External-5400-RPM-HDDR640E04XR-Hard-/330564051748?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf7272324#ht_500wt_1156
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billb
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: SuperDuper/CarbonCopyCloner Reply with quote

asmack wrote:
Just curious, how did you realize that the clones were bad? Did SD and CCC give a warning that the cloning process could not be completed, or did the programs just stop responding (ie., freeze)? Or was it only through diligent testing of each of your clones that you discovered they were going bad?
The app's let you know BEFORE you create a clone if it will be bootable.
The problem with that is, it can't know if the clone will be a good clone.
However, if your clone SHOULD be bootable and it doesn't indicate it will be
then you know you may have a problem. The way I found out my clones
weren't any good was when I tried to boot the newest and it wouldn't or it
did but was unstable. So I tried clone #2. Same result, etc., etc., etc.
asmack wrote:
I'm scared now because if my clones are going bad and SD is not alerting me to this fact, how do I go about finding out if the integrity of my clones is good?
Thats easy, after the cloning is finished, boot it and run your Mac from it.
asmack wrote:
Do the interconnect boards in the Mac mini's fail after so many hours? Or was this bad luck on your part?
Just bad luck.
asmack wrote:
Finally, is this why you eventually decided to go RAID, because of the problems you experienced? I hear that RAIDs have their own set of problems and headaches. I guess the key thing is to have as many backups as possible, ideally with some copies stored offsite and rotated regularly.
Exactly, most people, including me, don't do much until something catastrophic happens.

asmack wrote:
Sorry for all the questions!
Not a problem.
One good way to learn if a RAID enclosure may
be good is to read the reviews of those who have
purchased the item before you.
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asmack
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, philiparcario and billb!

So for non-bootable clones that have no OS on them, just try to do a clone build and if it succeeds without hanging or freezing, it should be okay, correct? I have SD already, do you recommend getting CCC as well?

How can I check the integrity of a non-bootable clone without using SD or CCC? Will using the verify feature of Disk Utility be sufficient or should I also get something like DiskWarrior?

I've owned and used over a dozen Macs since the late 1980's and have never had a hard drive fail on me (both internal and external), so this is why I am kind of a newb when it comes to this sort of stuff. In fact, I've never had a Mac fail on me in any way. Even my peripherals have never gone bad, I swear! The only issue I've ever had was when I bought a Cinema Display last year which had a dead pixel. But I was able to finally obtain one that was perfect.

I don't abuse my computers but I don't baby them either. I guess I have led a charmed life so far when it comes to computers. Despite my "charmed" life, I still believe in backing up religiously, because I know how fragile digital data can be. I also know that I am long overdue for a major computer catastrophe. Laughing

Now as far as cars are concerned, don't even get me started on that. Suffice it to say that I will never buy a Chrysler product again (no offense to Chrysler fans--I just never had any luck with them). Razz
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billb
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

asmack wrote:
Thanks, philiparcario and billb!
So for non-bootable clones that have no OS on them, just try to do a clone build and if it succeeds without hanging or freezing, it should be okay, correct? I have SD already, do you recommend getting CCC as well?
A non-bootable clone isn't a clone but a corrupted OS.
A clone without an OS isn't a clone. A clone is an exact duplicate.
EXACT DUPLICATE!!! If your cloning appears to go well, that doesn't
necessarily mean it isn't corrupted. I (we) recommend you use more than
one cloning App.

asmack wrote:
How can I check the integrity of a non-bootable clone without using SD or CCC? Will using the verify feature of Disk Utility be sufficient or should I also get something like DiskWarrior?

The only way to be reasonably sure is to boot it and use it.

asmack wrote:
I've owned and used over a dozen Macs since the late 1980's and have never had a hard drive fail on me (both internal and external), so this is why I am kind of a newb when it comes to this sort of stuff. In fact, I've never had a Mac fail on me in any way. Even my peripherals have never gone bad, I swear! The only issue I've ever had was when I bought a Cinema Display last year which had a dead pixel. But I was able to finally obtain one that was perfect.
Your the exception that proves the rule, or rather your turn is coming soon.

asmack wrote:
I don't abuse my computers but I don't baby them either. I guess I have led a charmed life so far when it comes to computers. Despite my "charmed" life, I still believe in backing up religiously, because I know how fragile digital data can be. I also know that I am long overdue for a major computer catastrophe. Laughing

Its good you are realistic. Thats half the battle. Do something NOW to win
the battle when it sneaks up on you at the wrong time.

asmack wrote:
Now as far as cars are concerned, don't even get me started on that. Suffice it to say that I will never buy a Chrysler product again (no offense to Chrysler fans--I just never had any luck with them). Razz

Don't buy a Ford either. My third Ford will be my last, it wasn't a charm!!!!!
Don't get me started on Chrysler either. My grandfather had a New Yorker.
Its good they are no longer made. I'm done with American made junk.
Japan here I come.

How sad. The American automobile industry has killed itself.
Its truly sad!
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asmack
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I should clarify. I use SD to make 5 or 6 clones of my mini's internal hard drive (which has Mac OS X on it and is called "Macintosh HD") to several other drives. These clones are bootable, and I make sure each of these clones is a slightly different version so that I have different snapshots of my mini's startup drive. (I have a dedicated Time Machine drive as well.)

But I also have a 2TB external drive which only has media files on it, no operating system whatsoever and therefore a non-bootable drive. I call this drive "Media". It has all my iTunes media and all my raw and jpeg digital photos. I use SD to make clones of this drive to several other 2TB drives (again, different versions in case I accidentally delete something off the "Media" drive).

Is the term "clone" only applicable to bootable drives? If so, I'm sorry for using wrong terminology...

billb wrote:
asmack wrote:
Thanks, philiparcario and billb!
So for non-bootable clones that have no OS on them, just try to do a clone build and if it succeeds without hanging or freezing, it should be okay, correct? I have SD already, do you recommend getting CCC as well?
A non-bootable clone isn't a clone but a corrupted OS.
A clone without an OS isn't a clone. A clone is an exact duplicate.
EXACT DUPLICATE!!! If your cloning appears to go well, that doesn't
necessarily mean it isn't corrupted. I (we) recommend you use more than
one cloning App.

asmack wrote:
How can I check the integrity of a non-bootable clone without using SD or CCC? Will using the verify feature of Disk Utility be sufficient or should I also get something like DiskWarrior?

The only way to be reasonably sure is to boot it and use it.

asmack wrote:
I've owned and used over a dozen Macs since the late 1980's and have never had a hard drive fail on me (both internal and external), so this is why I am kind of a newb when it comes to this sort of stuff. In fact, I've never had a Mac fail on me in any way. Even my peripherals have never gone bad, I swear! The only issue I've ever had was when I bought a Cinema Display last year which had a dead pixel. But I was able to finally obtain one that was perfect.
Your the exception that proves the rule, or rather your turn is coming soon.

asmack wrote:
I don't abuse my computers but I don't baby them either. I guess I have led a charmed life so far when it comes to computers. Despite my "charmed" life, I still believe in backing up religiously, because I know how fragile digital data can be. I also know that I am long overdue for a major computer catastrophe. Laughing

Its good you are realistic. Thats half the battle. Do something NOW to win
the battle when it sneaks up on you at the wrong time.

asmack wrote:
Now as far as cars are concerned, don't even get me started on that. Suffice it to say that I will never buy a Chrysler product again (no offense to Chrysler fans--I just never had any luck with them). Razz

Don't buy a Ford either. My third Ford will be my last, it wasn't a charm!!!!!
Don't get me started on Chrysler either. My grandfather had a New Yorker.
Its good they are no longer made. I'm done with American made junk.
Japan here I come.

How sad. The American automobile industry has killed itself.
Its truly sad!


Yeah, I have a Subaru now which is a gazillion times better than my Chrysler! Should have gotten rid of my Dodge a long time ago...
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billb
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything you've done is perfect.
Your reasonably well protected.
A clone is nothing more (or less)
than an exact duplicate. I assumed
you were talking about your OS,
hence my confusion.

You've done more than most do.
Your not protected against a fire
or a tsunami or a nuclear explosion,
but I think your reasonably well
protected. Oops I already said
that.
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billb
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject: Subaru Reply with quote

Did you say a Slowbaru? Just kidding!
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