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Obama or McCain?
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Obama or McCain?
Obama
72%
 72%  [ 36 ]
McCain
28%
 28%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 50

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Bobaloo
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: IDK Reply with quote

hackersmovie wrote:
dungeon92 wrote:
Zuma wrote:
dungeon92 wrote:
Also, most Democrats hate guns, even though part of the reason for the Second Amendment was created was to allow the people the ability to defend themselves against the government in the event it would stop caring for the public and only themselves.


I'm so tired of the republicans using the three g's (god, guns and gays) every election cycle. Everyone knows the Second Amendment isn't going to be overturned. That is a just a dividing rod they use to rile up the redneck vote in red states. The truth is, most of us on the left just want better gun control laws and waiting periods.


The democrats try to make guns harder to get than they should be though and restrict guns based on appearance and not functionality. In IL the government has been far tainted by Chicago to the point that we have the most restrictive state laws (D.C. is a federal district, so don't bring that one up) that people question how constitutional the FOID card system is since the state police can think up a reason for you not to get it or can take 6 months to process them when they promise a quick 30 day processing. Also, more gun control laws do almost nothing to stop gun violence since odd thing about criminals, they don't use legal guns and get their guns illegally. Also more waiting periods? Why? Either you have or you haven't committed a felony or other crime that loses you your gun rights so at most the waiting period should be a matter of hours for a check to go through. People who want more gun control have never looked at the facts about gun crimes and the fact that legal gun owners are very rarely the people who commit crimes.


I could care less about the gun situation when we are faced with issues like, a record deficit, horrible health care, record profits by oil companies, the Iraq mishap (keepin' it real PC there), a slumping economy, a failing education system. The list is rather long, I'm only giving a snippet here. As you can see, how fast I can buy a gun won't rank real high.


I agree with you HM, I can't see how being able to buy a gun, ( which can be done in many states with no waiting period, which is one of the ways they get into NY,) is going to do anything to improve the situation we are faced with right now in the U.S. Let's hope that the Iraq mishap, a good way to describe does not continue too much longer or our friend won't have to worry about buying a gun, the government will issue him one. Think about that the first time you vote.
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hackersmovie
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: IDK Reply with quote

dungeon92 wrote:
Also, most Democrats hate guns. . .


Even with the word "most", that's still a fairly large blanket statement. Are guns and the buying techniques really a major issue, now?

Is this really your largest concern?

If so, that concerns me!
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phaedrus
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: IDK Reply with quote

hackersmovie wrote:
Is this really your largest concern?

If so, that concerns me!


I'm just worried about what's going to happen when the weapon supporters finally rise up to use their weapons against the government in their militia, as the second amendment was designed, and they realise that the government now significantly out-guns them and the relevance of the amendment went out the window a very long time ago.

But the second amendment is still a good way to ensure people have guns for entertainment, and ensure weapons get into society so they can have a chance of making it to criminals!
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hackersmovie
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: IDK Reply with quote

phaedrus wrote:
hackersmovie wrote:
Is this really your largest concern?

If so, that concerns me!


I'm just worried about what's going to happen when the weapon supporters finally rise up to use their weapons against the government in their militia, as the second amendment was designed, and they realise that the government now significantly out-guns them and the relevance of the amendment went out the window a very long time ago.

But the second amendment is still a good way to ensure people have guns for entertainment, and ensure weapons get into society so they can have a chance of making it to criminals!


C'mon! Really? That's the least of my worries!

If we don't fix the things I've already listed, this is my take on what will happen with guns and the 2nd Amendment:

1) Deficit remains: You'll pay 50% tax and $20 for a gallon of milk, so if you have a gun, you won't be able to afford bullets
2) Education stays the same: Our children and the generations to come will weigh on average 400lbs and won't be able to read so, they won't be able to buy guns
3) record profits by Oil Companies: The U.S.A will be run by OPEC, gas will cost $100 a gallon, so you won't be able to afford the gun or bullets
4) No Healthcare reform: Well all be dead or diseased anyway, of course then I'll want a gun to assist Dr. Kavorkian

Now, of course most of that is tongue-in-cheek but, as exaggerated as it is, I may not be far off Shocked

My point is, there are waaayy more important issues before us, than gun control or the like. I am certainly not against the 2nd amendment or guns, I own several, but there is a time and place. This may be the place, just not the time.
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dungeon92
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject: egal guns Reply with quote

Do you not get the idea that the hard you make legal guns to obtain the more illegal guns that are imported (coastal drops aren't hard at all with how much security the Pacific coast has at some points). Gun control must be kept an active issue since it's when people don't pay attention to these kinds of issues that the Congress silently passes more gun control, also when guns are banned/excessively controlled, such as in D.C., crime only goes up since people can't defend themselves, in Australia crime went up over 500% in one city after they did a national ban on repeating firearms. Legal guns used in crimes are very few, and what happens when guns are banned, the people who want to commit murder find something else like how stabbing rose in the UK after their gun bans. The fact is those who use legal guns for crime is a minute percent.
Also, on the idea of the citizens being out gunned while true the citizens who hunt could probably pick off a human target no problem at 200+ yards with a hunting rifle and since they are meant for game and need to penetrate into the animal (with a deer you could need upto a foot of penetration to hit the heart) so the round would go through them and maybe the guy behind them. Most gun owners with any knowledge of what the use know this and don't use their guns for such as they are law abiding citizens who only use their firearms for sporting purposes.

And a sidenote for Ghostdawg, you live in a state with Conceal & Carry Weapons, do you feel unsafe or more so because of that?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I was going to stay out of this topic, but oh well.

I can be described about as far left as you can get and still be interested in mainstream political parties. Any further left, and you end up with the real weirdos and the alternative party choices. Though in reality, even though most of my positions are fairly 'left', there are a number of them that are more conservative. I just hit some of the hotbutton topics with a left answer and get labeled as such Smile

Anyway, gun rights/laws/control/whatever are pretty darn low on my list of important issues as well. Once we solve our energy, war, education, healthcare, deficit, economy, religion, transportation, civil rights, marriage rights, birth rights, and a million other problems, I'd like to tackle gun problems in the US. Frankly, those who legally use, purchase, own and register their weapons are not the ones I care about restricting. I care about the weapons that are used for crime, not the ones that are treated with the respect that a weapon deserves and enjoyed for legal purposes. I also don't blame the problems with crime in our society on the weapons themselves. They're a symptom of a problem, not the root of problem itself.

As hackers said, if gun control is your only concern (or any one single issue), that's a problem. There's a laundry list of serious differences in the two parties, and between all candidates right now. Serious differences that will definitely affect the next 4 years for almost all Americans, but more likely set the pace for many more years to come. Each presidency is not an isolated period. Each one has lasting effects on the future.

I have more respect for a person who considers each candidate's position on a number of topics and ends up picking someone different than I would, versus someone who picks the same candidate I do based on limited topics or a single topic.
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Last edited by Pleiades on Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hackersmovie
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ClunkClunk wrote:
I thought I was going to stay out of this topic, but oh well.

I can be described about as far left as you can get and still be interested in mainstream political parties. Any further left, and you end up with the real weirdos and the alternative party choices (though in reality, even though most of my positions are fairly 'left', there are a number of them that are more conservative. I just hit some of the hotbutton topics with a left answer and get labeled as such Smile

Anyway, gun rights/laws/control/whatever are pretty darn low on my list of important issues as well. Once we solve our energy, war, education, healthcare, deficit, economy, religion, transportation, civil rights, marriage rights, birth rights, and a million other problems, I'd like to tackle gun problems in the US. Frankly, those who legally use, purchase, own and register their weapons are not the ones I care about restricting. I care about the weapons that are used for crime, not the ones that are treated with the respect that a weapon deserves and enjoyed for legal purposes. I also don't blame the problems with crime in our society on the weapons themselves. They're a symptom of a problem, not the root of problem itself.

As hackers said, if gun control is your only concern (or any one single issue), that's a problem. There's a laundry list of serious differences in the two parties, and between all candidates right now. Serious differences that will definitely affect the next 4 years for almost all Americans, but more likely set the pace for many more years to come. Each presidency is not an isolated period. Each one has lasting effects on the future.

I have more respect for a person who considers each candidate's position on a number of topics and ends up picking someone different than I would, versus someone who picks the same candidate I do based on limited or a single topic.


Well said ClunkClunk. Don't "stay out", I enjoy your posts on topics like these! It just so happens we appear to agree, so far. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Also Reply with quote

And just to make sure it's know gun control isn't my biggest issue, but it's an issue that no one brings up, hell if we want to talk about the issues talk about all of them not just the biggest ones. I really care about the economy since I have no way to leave this country for at least 2 years and hope to pursue a college level and higher education here meaning possibly another 6 years for what I want so that's 2 presidential terms, plus now the economy is starting to affect me since I can drive I need money to go out and do things, but no where is hiring. The war in Iraq, even though I like the Republican side of things more I simply can't support this war for oil when it's crashing our economy more than just paying more for gas to avoid conflict could do.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Re: egal guns Reply with quote

dungeon92 wrote:
And a sidenote for Ghostdawg, you live in a state with Conceal & Carry Weapons, do you feel unsafe or more so because of that?


In Maryland you can get a Concealed Weapons Permit. I could, once again, care less. Those that have them, godspeed. Those that don't, maybe they shouldn't. It has no relevance on my feeling of safety. I don't think about guns, how to buy one, or if I'm going to get shot on a daily basis. And I might add, I travel in and through Baltimore, MD and Philadelphia, PA and Wilmington, DE. Three of the "not so safe" metro areas in the U.S. Not one time have I thought....

"Boy, I hope I don't get shot!"
"I wonder if that guy is carrying a gun"
"Sure wish I had brought one of my guns, for my safety"

what I have thought is:

"Why is that 8yr old kid standing in the middle of a parking lot during school?"
"What happened to that guy, that he's begging for food?"
"What happened to that guy in the wheelchair, with a broken wheel?"
"Why does gas cost $4.29 a gallon here, when I can buy it for $3.24 a gallon at home?"
"Why is there so much trash laying around the streets here but, not 5 blocks over?"

You see, I able to free my mind of the first three because there is a POLICE DEPARTMENT that is equipped with the guns they need to PROTECT ME!!!!! Which I pay for with my TAXES!

Are we done with the gun issue for now? Are these other topics not more important? Do you not think that, maybe, just maybe, the "gun issue" might not be so much an issue if these other issues would get resolved?


Side note to all: I own guns, plural. I've had friends that have been shot. I've had friends that committed suicide with guns. I knew a local boy who shot another kid. Through all this, I'm not anti gun by any means. It's not the guns and bullets that kill. It's the idiot pulling the trigger.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Why does gas cost $4.29 a gallon here, when I can buy it for $3.24 a gallon at home?"

Don't worry... you'd be paying another $1.20 if you were buying petrol at New Zealand prices Wink

As for the police department having the guns they need to protect us... I feel somewhat differently in New Zealand. But then again, thanks to strict gun controls we have had 23 police officers killed in the line of duty since 1886... and since 1941 the police have fatally shot only 21 civilians. I think this is probably where my view of US gun culture comes from... I realise it takes an idiot to shoot someone, but it's REAL hard to shoot someone without a gun (or bullets).

Oh well, as a foreigner at least you don't have to worry about me running America and stopping people from keeping weapons. I'll just stay out of America until the shooting has stopped... See you shortly after hell freezes over Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phaedrus wrote:
I'll just stay out of America until the shooting has stopped... See you shortly after hell freezes over Wink


We are a pretty violent country. Our lousy economy isn't helping matters either.

Obama or McCain?

I'm for Obama! He really seems like a breath of fresh air. I don't think anything will change if McCain wins. It will just be the same old, same old.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: egal guns Reply with quote

dungeon92 wrote:
...and what happens when guns are banned, the people who want to commit murder find something else like how stabbing rose in the UK after their gun bans.

DungeonDude, I don't know what garbage the NRA has been pouring into your ears, but this is simply untrue.

We didn't have many guns to ban anyway, but after a guy walked into a school in 1996 with 4 legally obtained handguns and killed sixteen 5-year-olds and their teacher, the UK government took action and introduced a ban on all cartridge ammunition handguns with the exception of .22 calibre single-shot weapons. When Blair came to power in '97, he finished the job and banned the .22s. Our Olympic shooting team has to train abroad because some of their weapons are illegal in this country.

If the statistics for knife crime have shown an increase in the last 10 years, then it has little to do with firearms legislation and is much more connected to the increase in gang culture that this country has recently seen.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, everybody else just about summed up things on how I feel also. And no I don't feel any safer with the carry a gun permit law.

Someone may shoot me by mistake thinking I was going to rob him/her or some other nonsense. Be too late for 'OOPS"!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grover Time wrote:
I wish Gore was running again. I think he has more intellect and experience than any of the other candidates left standing. He's also liked around the world. )


Standing from outside of the USA, i'll tell you this for free.

No he isn't liked around the world...except for a lot a tree hugging hippies in Stockholm who are in a thrall over him. There are plenty of people who see him as a self serving hypocrite of the first order.

The very fact that the media suck up his every pronouncement without critically looking at his illegitimate and moneylaundering finances...just beggers belief..

If he ever does nominate, I'd expect he'd want all Americans to live in huts without running water, electricity or cars. Indeed, if he and his little group of IPCC elites have their way, you'll all be living in third world conditions, while China and India are given a blank cheque to prosper from cash handouts drawn on the backs of most hard working American and Australian moms and dads..

If there is one guy in American politics who could potentially bring the West to its knees..

Then Big Al is the guy..

God help us..

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gore was an idiot the first time he ran against JR...he didn't want Bill Clinton to support him openly and that help him lose the election.
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